I can appreciate the convenience. But wouldn't it be even more cool if you: had a conversation, had the chance of meeting someone interesting, paid attention to where you went in the store so you remember it next time (perhaps taking a precious little step to resist dementia) AND keep someone in their job?
My personal experience with the internet, over heavy use for 25 years, and especially when it became weaponised through a smart phone, is that it is addictive. Not just social media, but the whole damn thing.
The psychiatry diagnostic manuals of both Europe (ICD-10) and the US (DSM-5) recognise gaming addiction as real. Internet addiction will surely be next - it fulfills all the criteria for those addicted: E.g. Pre-occupation, continued use despite evidence of harm, increasing amounts, withdrawal effects.
The parallels for me personally between alcohol and the internet were real (although of course I'm not claiming it's as harmful). To continue the analogy, making internet addicts have smartphones is like making
David Braben (of "Elite" fame) made a cutting comment on how computing
David Braben (of "Elite" fame) made a cutting comment on how computing education had become watered down with the loss of programming in the 2000s. He said "There's nothing wrong with teaching kids how to use Word. We just shouldn't call it computing. We should call it what it used to be called - typing practice".
happy nation.
I'm pretty sure about 15-20% of the country is going to cry "voter
fraud" no matter who wins.
Ginger1 wrote to Gamgee <=-
At 9:31 PM on 19 Oct 20, Gamgee said to Bob Roberts:
Do you know how many elderly retired folks there are, who are on a very limited/fixed income, and can't afford a thousand-dollar phone, and wouldn't know how to use all it's features anyway; that there are in the world?
This reminds me of something I saw recently that saddened me. A
couple of weeks ago, the UK government belatedly released a Covid
tracking smartphone app, where via bluetooth it constantly sniffs
out your proximity to other app users and logs that. If one of
those other app users gets a positive Covid test, it will alert
all of those recent logged close proximity contacts. Or something
like that.
On the day of its launch, a BBC news reporter stated you would be
being "selfish" if you didn't install it.
The following day, I saw an elderly (80s) couple, wearing gloves
and masks, trying to make sense of various smart phones in a
department store. I had the feeling this was the first time
they'd been out of their house since lockdown back in March or
whenever it was. And they didn't look adept at technology.
Who knows the real story - maybe they were actually app
developers looking to upgrade to the latest iPhone and had it
rooted that same day - and I'm being horribly ageist in assuming
they were anything else. But I suspect they weren't and had gone
out because of this pressure for everyone to have a smartphone.
I know this is an example of where such technology is genuinely
useful, but it makes me feel uneasy, knowing that the
shareholders of Google and Apple must be delirious with joy that
all of this is happening.
I don't know why there's such a concerted movement by governmental agencies private corporations to indiscriminately collate all this data. I don't brea the law and I don't do anything interesting enough to warrant the collection and storage of my personal data, and this is true for 99% of the population are just trying to live their lives.
How does it work? GPS?? Do they have some kind of sensors. I workedno, in the store everything has a place. so it will say isle L13 shelf 5 and
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: MRO to HusTler on Wed Oct 21 2020 04:50 pm
How does it work? GPS?? Do they have some kind of sensors. Ino, in the store everything has a place. so it will say isle L13 shelf
worked
5 and
Wow. That's a lot of preasure to put on the people that stock the shelves. What happens if you can't find what you're looking for? Is there like a Home Depot Cop to call?? ;-)
In San Francisco, the carriers put up microcells in the underground tubes, and got quite a bit of heat when they were asked to turn their towers off during a time of protest, to prevent people from organizing.
In many places that were farther behind the curve than we are in the USA, they skipped the copper infrastructure period and went straight to wireless. Especially in a rural country, it makes a lot of sense.
I'm slightly jealous reading some of the older columns about how much they could do in China with 2g/3g, SMS and a feature phone. ecommerce, payments, and pretty much everything else in a phone with a week-long (or longer!) battery life.
David Braben (of "Elite" fame) made a cutting comment on how computing education had become watered down with the loss of programming in the 2000s. He said "There's nothing wrong with teaching kids how to use Word. We just shouldn't call it computing. We should call it what it used to be called - typing practice".
Your rebuttal to my fact based arguments can't be "open your
eyes" or "that's not really the point". You can't refute facts
with opinion, otherwise the whole conversation is pointless.
You're confusing facts with fiction/fantasy, apparently. "Open
your eyes" is very appropriate here. Not sure where you live, but
try expanding your tunnel-vision a little and perhaps you'll see.
Do you know how many elderly retired folks there are, who are on a very limited/fixed income, and can't afford a thousand-dollar phone, and wouldn't know how to use all it's features anyway; that there are in the
I can appreciate the convenience. But wouldn't it be even more cool if you: a conversation, had the chance of meeting someone interesting, paid attentio to where you went in the store so you remember it next time (perhaps taking precious little step to resist dementia) AND keep someone in their job?
slave to the device. Perhaps this is a personal issue you need to
review. I would imagine is quite a spectrum between "using" or "owning"
a smart phone and being a "slave" to it.
My personal experience with the internet, over heavy use for 25 years, and especially when it became weaponised through a smart phone, is that it is addictive. Not just social media, but the whole damn thing.
I even got to use "xe" in my post. :D
I thought part of being non-binary was that there should not be two pronouns. So, I get "xe", but why are there two, "Xer/Xe"?
Also, is the 'x' pronounced as a zed?
* SLMR 2.1a * The four snack groups: cakes, crunchies, frozen, sweets.
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Oct 19 2020 05:21 pm
Privacy is not a matter of distrusting the government ONLY.
Your friendly system administrator knows which smartphones were active in the corporate network on which hours. With some creative correlation and scripting your friendly sysadmin can find out Dr. Jack is always alone wi Nurse Mary every week, the same day of the week, at the same hour, out of their working hours.
Automated surveillance does not care for little you because it does not c for anybody. It just stores EVERYTHING. It is when your friendly sysadmin starts playing with the data when interesting bits surface.
Then there is also the matter that nobody knows the full letter of the la in their countries, since modern law is convoluted and complex and often makes no sense. NOBODY can possibly affirm they are breaking no law, sinc they don't know the full scope of the law - lawyers included. It is my opinion that everybody is most likely a law-breaker without knowing it. Therefore, it makes sense to take care with the data you spread.
Information is the newest hot commodity. Even Sony has pushed a new EULA agreement which states they can do ANYTHING they wish with your data with no recourse to the end user. That includes all voice communications whilst in party chat, all messages sent and all purchasing data. It's the same with Microsoft who has previously admitted that the Kinnect camera records pretty much everything when "incative" with third parties being able to access data within a private setting. Same with Amazon's Alexa, they've had issues with privacy breaches as it's come to light that Alexa has transmitted private conversations and has sent them to databanks for "analytical" purposes. It's quite scary to think how much data is being harvested by unsuspecting users non-govermental agenices. Personally I don't want ANY of my data passed onto third party or misused by a platform holder in any way. Edward Snowden broug to light the massive NSA databank called PRISM containing pretty much all internet communication sent/recieved within the USA by its citizens.
I don't know why there's such a concerted movement by governmental agencies private corporations to indiscriminately collate all this data. I don't brea the law and I don't do anything interesting enough to warrant the collection and storage of my personal data, and this is true for 99% of the population are just trying to live their lives.
the point, anyway. I disagree about most underground sites having
coverage, too. Certainly not my experience.
I live in the UK where coverage is considered "very good" and I have never come across a subway or underground station with any kind of connection.
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Bob Roberts to Gamgee on Wed Oct 21 2020 12:58 pm
Typically the poorer the country the MORE smartphones you will see, because it's the only option people have. They don't
have computers, or home internet. It's how they stay connected to services, and stay entertained.
I don't know if you read 2600 magazine, but there's a column called "The Telecom Informer" written by a telco tech. He's
traveled the world on assignments and written about the state of telco around the world.
In many places that were farther behind the curve than we are in the USA, they skipped the copper infrastructure period and
went straight to wireless. Especially in a rural country, it makes a lot of sense.
I'm slightly jealous reading some of the older columns about how much they could do in China with 2g/3g, SMS and a feature
phone. ecommerce, payments, and pretty much everything else in a phone with a week-long (or longer!) battery life.
--- GINGER1 wrote ---
At 9:44 AM on 21 Oct 20, the doctor said to Ginger1:
It's not socialist, but it's all too often a hell hole. Churchill said "Britain is the best country in the world to be rich in." I'm not rich, so maybe that's the problem.
"z" is pronounced "zed"
Could be. I'm too addicted to the NHS to return to Arizona... I'm just not looking forward to six months of leaden skys and rain. It's grim up north. (But cheap...)
As far as dystopian societies go, I don't think "Demolition Man" is the worst! Up until Simon Phoenix arrived, everyone seem
fairly happy and there certainly wasn't any violence other than from those freedom loving sewer dwellers.
I think the real point of Demolition Man is that the "perfect society" only pretended to be perfect, while hiding its problems
under the rugs, and that it was as rotten in the core as any other society.
Again, that is frequently necessary when one speaks in sweeping
generalities often. Not trying to offend you, but you CLEARLY do
that a lot. A LOT.
Wow, second time today that I'm agreeing with you. That's
excellent. I also do not see any connectivity when down in a
subway system in a big city. Not sure where Bob lives, but am
starting to think it's in a fantasy world.
Good. Very glad to hear that, too. An important point here is
that it's not just the elderly that would have trouble with things
such as described above. There are MANY middle-age people and
even some "youngsters" that have challenges with mobile and other technology. I'd be willing to be that 80+ percent of smartphone
users don't know that you can pre-download Google maps onto a
phone. Maybe 90%. Anyway...
I'm pretty sure about 15-20% of the country is going to cry "voter
fraud" no matter who wins.
--
This is nothing new. Data collection has been going on since the civil war.
The only way you can get away from it is just don't communicate with anyone. Stay off your phone, laptop, tablet whatever and nobody can listen to you. Oh.. Don't forget, nothing in the mail either.
The first Internet generation (aka Unix Greybeards) built the tech from scratch, then refined it into the modern network we have now.
The latest generation doesn't need to build the infrastructure, that was already done for them. They're building the apps that can leverage it. They're mastering how to market the tools using the infrastructure. They' using those Apps to generate not just vast fortunes but massive followings online and off.
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Ginger1 to HusTler on Tue Oct 20 2020 10:51 pm
I can appreciate the convenience. But wouldn't it be even more cool if
you: a conversation, had the chance of meeting someone interesting,
paid attentio to where you went in the store so you remember it next
time (perhaps taking precious little step to resist dementia) AND keep
someone in their job?
You mean like a Home Depot dating app? ;-)
I even got to use "xe" in my post. :D
I thought part of being non-binary was that there should not be two
pronouns. So, I get "xe", but why are there two, "Xer/Xe"?
Also, is the 'x' pronounced as a zed?
"z" is pronounced "zed"
"z" is pronounced "zed"
Cheap Chinese video cameras have been doumented to "call home" unexpectantly transferring information and I've read on a few forums some cameras sold though Amazon will send data to them. Some of this activity may be in their end user agreement, and considered tools to teach AI's to detect objects. Ima gine if you ran out of milk, and Alexa asks if you need to pick up milk because a camera saw you empty the carton? Imagine a third party exploiting this tool, looking for items to steal or blackmail you?
This is interesting to hear, we don't have the most massive underground here (105km) with our above-ground commuter rail handling a lot of the distant suburbs... but there is not a single subway here that won't have a full connection, I think only once did I drop to two bars. To be fair, I've only used Telenor and not Telia or alternatives, so I can't say if it is service provider specific.
Ginger1 wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
If it's a map you need for driving, I guess a cheap dedicated sat nav could be picked up pretty cheaply. Living in a city, it's possible
still for me to get a really good city map in a compact book form which works well.
to ask a couple of members of public for help, one of whom was a very cheery chap who put me in a good mood. I wouldn't have had that if I
was just focused on the phone.
* Q-Blue 2.4 *
Bob Roberts wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
It was a distributed antenna system owned by BART, and BART turned it
off. It wasn't the carriers. After BART got a bunch of negative publicity they promised not to do it again, and if fact they didn't
when an even bigger protest came up later.
Bob Roberts wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Yes, its true. I saw it myself in the Philippines. All services in
the home are delivered by the wireless companies.
I just hope that at least we're training some new Unix Greybeards, and that these new generations are
at least interested in leaning the foundations that are still at play today.
Or we may face a future that was explored in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode When the Bough
Breaks (S01E17):
I suppose it's much like Huawei phones transmitting data back to China. That example you made isn't too far from future reality. Amazon are going to have pretty much all their home technology connected to the IoT (internet of things) allowing the hub to order new lightbulbs if one
Interesting that the same is happening here. Verizon petitioned to
abandon some of the the copper infrastructure destroyed bu hurricane
Sandy and replace dialtone over copper with wireless. Not sure what's happened with that.
On 10-21-20 08:08, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I had never even heard of TikTok until several months ago when it was
in the news here for potentially being a security risk.
On 10-21-20 13:18, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
What genders are there exactly? Other than beyond male, female and intersex (which itself tends to have a dominant presentation or
functional form).
i had an amazon blu phone that was calling back to china. then they did a patch to block it and then ad companies found out a way to exploit it and show ads
Interesting. I guess the UK's infastructure is a little dated. I read that selected underground lines in London were getting upgrades in 2019. I reckon it'll be a number of years before the rest of the nation catches up. Glad your country supports underground connections though!
I guess it has something to do with the Chinese components being hard wired with an exploitable back door. I see the Blu phone is much like the Kindle which can be subsidised by ads and purchased at a discount. I purchased a bog standard Kindle (2016) which has loads of ads; there are banners, the screen saver is an ad, etc... I don't mind too much though but I'd be displeased if it happened on my phone!
The parallels for me personally between alcohol and the internet were real (although of course I'm not claiming it's as harmful). To continue the analogy, making internet addicts have smartphones is like making
and here you are on the internet
The latest generation doesn't need to build the infrastructure, that was already done for them. They're building the apps that can leverage it. They're mastering how to market the tools using the infrastructure. They're using those Apps to generate not just vast fortunes but massive followings both online and off.
It's quite amazing when you think about it. It may leave a sense of
being left behind, but it's more then just "typing practice".
@MSGID: <[email protected]>
@REPLY: <[email protected]>
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Ginger1 to Mro on Wed Oct 21 2020 09:53 pm
David Braben (of "Elite" fame) made a cutting comment on how computing
never heard of him, guess he's not that famous.
@MSGID: <[email protected]>
@REPLY: <[email protected]
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Ginger1 to Gamgee on Tue Oct 20 2020 10:42 pm
veryDo you know how many elderly retired folks there are, who are on a
in thelimited/fixed income, and can't afford a thousand-dollar phone, and wouldn't know how to use all it's features anyway; that there are
You should come to New York. Free Government paid smartphones for the elderly and low income. You won't be feeling sorry for them because of phone anyway. ;-)
@MSGID: <[email protected]>
@REPLY: <[email protected]
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Ginger1 to HusTler on Tue Oct 20 2020 10:51 pm
I can appreciate the convenience. But wouldn't it be even more coolif you:
a conversation, had the chance of meeting someone interesting, paidattentio
to where you went in the store so you remember it next time (perhapstaking
precious little step to resist dementia) AND keep someone in theirjob?
You mean like a Home Depot dating app? ;-)
dude, we probably have friends in real life and so does homedepot dude. homedepot guy wants you to fuck off.
we're there to get stuff to repair our homes, not develop a meaningful relationship with a person in their work place.
fuck off with that shit. who taught you that.
It's quite amazing when you think about it. It may leave a sense of
being left behind, but it's more then just "typing practice".
Could be. I'm too addicted to the NHS to return to Arizona... I'm just
not looking forward to six months of leaden skys and rain. It's grim up north. (But cheap...)
Very interesting, and worrisome. Thanks for sharing.
I agree that there are some (people and corporations) that hope this pandemic does NOT end soon. I hope that old couple didn't sacrifice
next month's grocery bill in order to buy a smartphone.
* Q-Blue 2.4 *
I haven't heard of Q-Blue in years! I'm friends on Facebook with the
author, he was a long-time caller of my BBS.
The transition from pen and paper to the digital society
has occurred so quickly that it has frozen a lot of people out of their normal routines. It's easy for me and the individuals here to
transition, we grew up using technology but to a lot of others it's an alien world to them. Big companies only care about the bottom line and cost-cutting measures equate to promotions to most middle managers.
---
* Synchronet * BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and
PCW!
Interesting. I guess the UK's infastructure is a little dated. I read
that selected underground lines in London were getting upgrades in 2019.
I reckon it'll be a number of years before the rest of the nation
catches up. Glad your country supports underground connections though!
Or we may face a future that was explored in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode When the Bough
Breaks (S01E17):
City of Ember (a good book and decent movie) also explores this quite
well. Love to see another TNG lover on the Echos.
Vk3jed wrote to Tracker1 <=-
On 10-21-20 13:18, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
What genders are there exactly? Other than beyond male, female and intersex (which itself tends to have a dominant presentation or
functional form).
Actually, those are considered "biological sex".
Gender has a number of variants - male and female, non binary, genderfluid, agender, androgyne, to name a few. There's more, but I'd have to start digging. :)
And while most of us are probably cisgender, meaning that our
biological sex and gender identiy are in sync with each other (e.g. I'm physically male, assigned at birth "male", and identify as male - or in short, a cisgender male), some people have a different gender identity
to that which they were assigned at birth (presumed from their visible
sex characteristics). These people are known as transgender.
There's a lot of complexity in humans. :)
As for intersex (which is actually more about physical sex), that's someone who is both with physical characteristics that are neither
whoole male or female. This could be an absence of one or more sexual characteristics, or a mix of male and female physical characteristics.
On 10-18-20 23:58, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not sure how much of this is real. There is biological sex, and
that results in behavioural and physical characteristics. However,
what I'm not sure of, is how we can say someone has a different gender despite having male physical and behavioural characteristics.
I am not a "blokey" man. I'm not into sports or many other things charactertics of men. I probably would find it more comfortable to
talk to women at a BBQ about stuff than sports and cars, but that
doesn't mean I'm less 'male'. There are social stereotypes, and I
think some people think because they don't identify with the social stereotype, their gender is therefore more ambiguous. There is
evidence that identification with alternative 'non-binary' genders is largely cultural. That is, most people believe they are because of the external culture.
and here you are on the internet
I'm getting these posts via a dial-up board. But I'm still being a hypocrite, because obviously 99% of this message exchange is being routed
But on the plus, I don't have internet home and I don't have a smart phone. That's working for me.
Ah, I forgot to mention - Sweden/Stockholm was where I was referring to. On the West Coast Gothenburg is mostly tram traffic and in between is mostly above ground rail. To be fair, I think the cellular infrastructure here is just very good. I thought you guys had been upgraded a couple years back but now that I think of it, last time I was there I lost signal!
you could get it real cheap and it just had ads on your lockscreen.
i didnt have that one though.
i think after a while both backdoors were closed but it's not the best phone. would be great if i could have rooted it.
Yes, it makes me sad. I was in my local library a couple of years ago, and an elderly lady was having a fairly heated conversation with the librarian, because the council had stopped doing a key service any way but online. They'd told her to go to the library to do it there with the help of the librarian, but she was clearly upset about it. The librarian just said "Well, it's always good to learn new things." Fair point - but a bit insensitive.
There are times when I've found pencil and paper better though. Revision notes - there's evidence that it sticks better. I've only ever been able to get organised with pen and paper - I love a to-do list app or program, but I just end up playing with the software; on paper - suddenly I can start to get work done.
Awesome! I've got an NC100 - I loved it before it broke on me with capacitor issues. Found it had a certain special charm to it. Do you still use original Amstrad machines for anything productive?
By the way - on my BBS I've got an Amstrad area. Hoping to build up a reasonable software collection there for non-internet connected Amstrad machines amongst others (I've had an NC100 call me once before!)
Travelling on the tube today - a lack of connection didn't seem to put people off their phones!
i think after a while both backdoors were closed but it's not the best
phone. would be great if i could have rooted it.
If it's just the lock screen I wouldn't mind too much. The Kindle got a little annoying due to banners appearing everywhere in the main menu but it functions fine otherwise. The discount was probably worth it as it doesn't affect the eBooks or audiobooks.
What genders are there exactly? Other than beyond male, female andThere are also people who are gender non confirming where if they looked
intersex (which itself tends to have a dominant presentation or
functional form).
On 10-18-20 23:58, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not sure how much of this is real. There is biological sex, and that results in behavioural and physical characteristics. However, what I'm not sure of, is how we can say someone has a different gender despite having male physical and behavioural characteristics.
Only the person themselves can say, no one else can.
Travelling on the tube today - a lack of connection didn't seem to put
people off their phones!
So many phone zombies these days. I have a lot of screentime on my phone but I am not that bad. I am never glued to it in a public place or when I am with someone.
But on the plus, I don't have internet home and I don't have a smart phone. That's working for me.
if you say so. you sound crazy.
dont blow anybody up
City of Ember (a good book and decent movie) also explores this quite well.
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: MRO to Andeddu on Thu Oct 22 2020 10:30 pm
i had an amazon blu phone that was calling back to china. then they did patch to block it and then ad companies found out a way to exploit it and show ads
I guess it has something to do with the Chinese components being hard wired with an exploitable back door. I see the Blu phone is much like the Kindle which can be subsidised by ads and purchased at a discount. I purchased a bo standard Kindle (2016) which has loads of ads; there are banners, the screen saver is an ad, etc... I don't mind too much though but I'd be displeased if happened on my phone!
Biological sex is defined by the science of biology whereas gender is a soci construct. That's why there are so many different genders in the world.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 10-18-20 23:58, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not sure how much of this is real. There is biological sex, and
that results in behavioural and physical characteristics. However,
what I'm not sure of, is how we can say someone has a different gender despite having male physical and behavioural characteristics.
Only the person themselves can say, no one else can.
I am not a "blokey" man. I'm not into sports or many other things charactertics of men. I probably would find it more comfortable to
talk to women at a BBQ about stuff than sports and cars, but that
doesn't mean I'm less 'male'. There are social stereotypes, and I
think some people think because they don't identify with the social stereotype, their gender is therefore more ambiguous. There is
evidence that identification with alternative 'non-binary' genders is largely cultural. That is, most people believe they are because of the external culture.
You've brought up another dimension that I didn't touch on - gender expression or gender roles - Gender expression is how you express your gender, which may or may not conform to stereotypes or traditional
roles. In some ways, I do present as a "typical" male (with a lot of differences) - I do love sport, though more about participating and competition, rather than watching, but I also have a softer, nurturing side that comes out when it's needed, which a lot of men are afraid of expressing.
A lot of gay men identify as male, but express themselves in ways considered by our society as "feminine". That's different to actually identifying as "female", even if the resulting expression is similar is similar.
Not being transgender or non binary myself, I can't fully understand
the experience, but I can listen and I can relate with the closest experiences I do have.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / Af
By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Sun Oct 18 2020 11:58 pm
There is evidence that identification with alternative 'non-binary' genders is largely cultural. That is, most people believe they are because of the external culture.
Biological sex is defined by the science of biology whereas gender is a social construct. That's why there are so many different genders in the world.
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